上唔上數碼背好？

Jason

vincecharus 發表於 2013-8-17 01:15
中幅大同重真是一個好大的問題！我用5D3加小白2代同24移軸，一機兩鏡，已經揹到我無灑心機。

中幅比DS ...

冇錯！分分鐘重到你唔想影！
同埋你講得啱，像素越高，越易手震。不過，36MP的35mm FF 其實係比 36MP 的數碼背易手震，因為pixel density更高，所以D800E係仲易手震！

我而家DB的手震問題的解決方案是：
哈哈，用Hasselblad H。佢個有兩個 setting，1) extend mirror lock up latency 以減少反光版的震動。2) 手動 mirror lockup，我set custom function，手指公一click，lock mirror，㩒 shutter 影，由於是 lens leaf shutter我可以快門慢至 1�60 （甚至更低）。好有用！

『中幅的dynamic range闊但ISO動態範圍窄』，係啱嘅，CCD同CMOS鬥高ISO，答案係無得鬥！但latest generation DB sensor 的 ISO800 絕對可用（甚至1600），而且，DB的 noise pattern 比較 organic，似 film noise，就算有都比較好睇。不過真係要高ISO嘅話，都係算罷啦，我會用D800E算數！

機動性就梗係M啦。不過五皮幾嘢買部機，又冇時間影，呢個exactly 係我個 concern lor!

Patrick_c

又學到野

多謝各c-hings outputs.

vincecharus

VVII 發表於 2013-8-17 00:23
都係家庭照，我找D無屋企人給你睇下

期待！

bytfung

DB 要預左自己執顏色
因為無 DSLR 的罐頭 profile

要看你用甚麼 system
如 Hasselblad V / Alpa 就要自行測光
Hasselblad 鏡間快門唔準 (我用的多是 CF 舊鏡)，例如 F4, 1/500 會同 F8, 1/125 不同曝光。
舊款 DB (eg Leaf Aptus, Phase One P series) 個 monitor 唔靚 check 曝光無咁易，下下要 histogram.
用 M9 唔會下下 check histogram 掛。

所以我轉了 Mamiya / Phase One AF body 同新款背
有測光，有 AF，電子快門。
雖然如此，但都無可能手持。因為咁高象素係少少震都唔得，除非唔放大張相。
但如果唔打算放大張相又做乜用數碼背。

我上週 Alpa + 1 lens + 1 背
行山，連食水，乾糧
重量令人無心機影。

好敬佩冰島歸來班師兄，連 4x5 film 都有

vincecharus

VVII 發表於 2013-8-17 12:03
645D我都玩過朋友的，高光死曬，而且很奇怪，畫質好鬼FLAT，無乜立體感

645D個sensor，同M9個柯達sensor一模一樣，只是size唔同，用得慣M9，用Pentax時又投訴光位爆，有點奇怪

645D可用哈蘇鏡

平價中幅來講，Pentax算吸引

redrede

kgv 發表於 2013-8-17 10:57
“何必被相機玩，背餐死？”  x2

再加埋 ...

相機
鏡頭尼句冇想過由k san 講，有D後官佳麗三千feel

vincecharus

bytfung 發表於 2013-8-17 12:37
DB 要預左自己執顏色
因為無 DSLR 的罐頭 profile

所以我如果追求中幅的話，只諗Leica S系

ghost03032008

Jason 發表於 2013-8-17 12:05
冇錯！分分鐘重到你唔想影！
同埋你講得啱，像素越高，越易手震。不過，36MP的35mm FF 其實係比 3 ...

所以果陣未入MM前，我都有諗過800E, CMOS ISO 又夠高，像數又大D....又平好多，.......入多一兩支R鏡，同部MM差吾多價錢。

不過後來，諗諗下，本身又有D M 鏡，冇胃搞多個system...同埋始終M system比較輕便，又用慣左RF 對焦方法，最後都係........

vincecharus

Jason 發表於 2013-8-17 12:05
冇錯！分分鐘重到你唔想影！
同埋你講得啱，像素越高，越易手震。不過，36MP的35mm FF 其實係比 3 ...

“36MP的35mm FF 其實係比 36MP 的數碼背易手震，因為pixel density更高，所以D800E係仲易手震！”

數學上，是沒有分別的，pixel density 低左，但 size 大左，咪又系一樣？

Jason

vincecharus 發表於 2013-8-17 13:06
“36MP的35mm FF 其實係比 36MP 的數碼背易手震，因為pixel density更高，所以D800E係仲易手震！”

數 ...

actually i think no.

because motion blur occurs when the camera moves more than the size of a pixel (Imagine there is one single source of laser in your image. You only see a blurry image when the laser comes across more than one pixel).
In order words, the smaller the pixel, the higher tendency motion blur would occur. it is not related to sensor size.

vincecharus

Jason 發表於 2013-8-17 17:00
actually i think no.

because motion blur occurs when the camera moves more than the size of a p ...

Inside a sensor, the pixels are only tens of micrometers apart.

E.g. a 17MP sensor has 5000 x 3400 pixels (roughly 3:2)

For FF, the width of the sensor is 36mm

Space between the pixels = 36mm / 5000 = 72 micrometers

Errors on this scale are insignificant.

What is significant is the relative motion between the subject and the sensor, which is usually measured (in non-macro situations) in centimeters or meters.

Jason

vincecharus 發表於 2013-8-17 20:09
Inside a sensor, the pixels are only tens of micrometers apart.

E.g. a 17MP sensor has 5000 x 3 ...

let me think think what you said sin

Jason

vincecharus 發表於 2013-8-17 20:09
Inside a sensor, the pixels are only tens of micrometers apart.

E.g. a 17MP sensor has 5000 x 3 ...

What is significant is the relative motion between the subject and the sensor, which is usually measured (in non-macro situations) in centimeters or meters.

i don't get it. if we are talking about camera shake, we are talking about the small movement caused by hands during the moment of capture, right? i don't understand how it is related to the relative motion between the subject and the sensor? for example, say, im taking landscape. even if it is handheld, the relative motion between the subject and the sensor won't be in centimeters or meters. maybe i get you wrong?

perhaps you could explain a bit more on this?

edwardyung

Jason 發表於 2013-8-17 20:41
let me think think what you said sin

你哋一個買大一個買細，我唯有膽粗粗買圍色。
如果像素相同、鏡頭視角相同、sensor長濶比例相同，我諗唔到點解有分別?
反而其他因素，例如大機大鏡會不會因重和大件而令把持不定；快門特性..... 等等。

vincecharus

Jason 發表於 2013-8-17 20:52
i don't get it. if we are talking about camera shake, we are talking about the small movement  ...

One micrometer = 1/100000 m = 1/1000 mm

When the camera shakes, we're talking about motion of maybe around 1mm (give and take in the ballpark).

You can then calculate the relative motion of that to the subject or the print (depending on the print size).

Whatever the result is, we're not talking about an error in the micrometer scale.

For FF, using 50mm standard lens, you get a pic of a certain size on a fixed object.

For medium format (e.g. 3:2, 45mm x 30mm), you use standard lens of 70mm and get a pic of exactly the same size on the same object.  That is because, while the focal length is increased and the magnification is larger, at the same time the sensor is bigger, too. So, you get a print of the same size of the same object in the end.

Jason

vincecharus 發表於 2013-8-17 21:15
One micrometer = 1/100000 m = 1/1000 mm

When the camera shakes, we're talking about motion of m ...

oh. i get your point!
actually both of us were correct, because we were talking about different things!

you were talking about sharpness in print. that's why you were saying "the relative motion of that to the subject or the print (depending on the print size)".

i was talking about critical sharpness in terms of actual pixel viewing on computer screen.

you were right. if you print out the photo, motion blur will be related to the print-out size, and thus the sensor size. but if we are not talking about print out, but pixel viewing, then what i said about pixel density was correct.

M3fans

Jason 發表於 2013-8-17 21:35
oh. i get your point!
actually both of us were correct, because we were talking about different t ...

If all that discussed were ture, than all 24mp apsc cameras should be some of the most easily motion blurred cameras for their high pixel densities. Put two 24mp apsc sensors together it is 48mp and the same size as FF. There are some small sensor cameras with even more higher pixel density but they have fixed lens and built-in VR; hence, difficult to single out what cause the "blur". I've used a nex7 with Leica lens and can't feel the "pixel density blur" effect, but can feel that on a D800.
我知我好煩，但真係想知。

Jason

ghost03032008 發表於 2013-8-17 12:58
所以果陣未入MM前，我都有諗過800E, CMOS ISO 又夠高，像數又大D....又平好多，.......入多一兩支R鏡，同 ...

而家倒返轉頭，我俾你搞到我想入返部MM。

ghost03032008

Jason 發表於 2013-8-17 23:12
而家倒返轉頭，我俾你搞到我想入返部MM。

入之前我都驚後悔，入完之後後悔入得遲....

Jason

M3fans 發表於 2013-8-17 22:57
If all that discussed were ture, than all 24mp apsc cameras should be some of the most easily moti ...

maybe because NEX7 has no mirror?