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Die Welt: “Leica’s nightmare is Sony”

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發表於 2013-12-2 21:19:51 | 顯示全部樓層 |閱讀模式
The German newspaper, Die Welt ("The World"), thinks Leica is in trouble.

http://leicarumors.com/2013/11/2 ... ny.aspx/#more-24476

Article in German:
http://www.welt.de/print/die_wel ... um-heisst-Sony.html

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發表於 2013-12-2 21:23:41 | 顯示全部樓層
But
more people buy A7
more people buy/try Leica lenses
one person owns, usually, one camera
but may own many lenses ...

Leica might benefit more, much more, from boosted lens business ...
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發表於 2013-12-2 21:43:57 | 顯示全部樓層
Hopefully, leica would work harder to built better quality cameras/lenses and make their prices more competitive.
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發表於 2013-12-3 00:09:14 | 顯示全部樓層
I am starting to wonder if building new lens is as profitable as making cameras now. With digital cameras, actually the product cycle is just 2 to 3 years. For a M which costs roughly 50k, basically the interim updates in a 10 year period will cost you like 120k.
While, of course 120k could get you roughly 1 noct and 1 50 apo, but they are going to last nearly a lifetime instead of 10 years.
To me, lens production is merely a way to tie you in with the digital camera updates, so that they can earn big money in the long run.

M lens, being always manual focus, is undoubtedly hit hardest by this mirrorless frenzy. Suddenly with the release of a7, no one ever need a M240.   

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發表於 2013-12-3 06:56:05 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 ww129 於 2013-12-3 06:59 編輯

"... no one ever need a M240" perhaps because Leica, being a successful brandname in niche market, has gone the wrong way to the "general" market starting from using CMOS. How can Leica compete with other brands using basically the same technology, if not better, but with product sell at half of its price tag ? Indeed, Leica should focus on developing CCD to a higher usable ISO. I guess Noctilux can already be used very well with an usable ISO of 4000 in most circumstances.  

If Leica wanna get a share in the general market, simply open a new line of product, like X.

Just my 2 cents
• 世间万事皆荒䜥;游子笑颜对哀伤。
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發表於 2013-12-3 07:07:40 來自手機 | 顯示全部樓層
Leica is leica, sony is sony, I always heard that sony and leica never compares with each others. Both have supportors or complement with each other....
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發表於 2013-12-3 09:35:42 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 Pandachief 於 2013-12-3 09:38 編輯
頭文字L 發表於 2013-12-3 07:07
Leica is leica, sony is sony, I always heard that sony and leica never compares with each others. Bo ...

X2.

I am always amazed by such article.. seems like no one care about the rangefinder experience anymore.. it is all about the RF and having optical view. This is what Leica is all about. The M, the range finder. No one care anymore and happy to compose with EVF?  So DSLR will die soon as well?

Furthermore, it is about the look and feel and brand loyalty.. more than function.

Like comparing Hermes with Porter.  Less function, different status.
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 樓主| 發表於 2013-12-3 09:42:31 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 vincecharus 於 2013-12-3 09:45 編輯

Like it or not, Leica will have to improve its capability in electronics. A high-end full-frame sensor (e.g. >14-bit color, or one stop usable high ISO over M9, greater dynamic range, or greater performance for wide-angle lenses, etc.) will save the camera brand.

A lot of folks like me are not happy with M240 because, by an engineering sleight of hand, its improvements over M9 in extreme lighting conditions are at the expense of its performance in normal lighting conditions.

They have 2 years. Time's running out!

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發表於 2013-12-3 10:38:15 來自手機 | 顯示全部樓層
Huge investment in semiconductor CMOSIS sensor cannot get return with these poor sales figures of M240.... No matters how high price they charge for each pieces of sensor. I forcast Leica will release whole range of Full frame X series compact cameras, in order to drive down the unit price of the CMOSIS sensor. Semiconductor technology, just like printing newspaper, cost must be offset by quantity. Or we will see a M240E in near future
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發表於 2013-12-3 10:59:27 來自手機 | 顯示全部樓層
Pandachief 發表於 2013-12-3 09:35
X2.

I am always amazed by such article.. seems like no one care about the rangefinder experience a ...

Panda Dada, it isn't that I do not appreciate the rangefinder experience and in fact I think it is every bit superior than EVF. However, I really tend to think people like us are a minority.

If I am going to take a HBR kind of perspective, I will take Leica = apple and Sony = android. People before are willing to pay high premiums for the prestige of apple. Yet now, is there sufficient product differentiation for the majority of user to sustain that premium? U could simply tell by looking at the vast increase of android users in a Mtr ride.

With m240, the actual product differentiation u got between Sony and Leica is just the RF, nothing more. And the majority of the user does not care about the RF, just as they didn't care about the better support and apps coverage of AppStore. They are happy as long as their phone got a huge mon for watching Korean drama. People are happy as long as u can plug any kind of vintage lens into a camera and fire away at f1.1. Leica or not, they didn't care.
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發表於 2013-12-3 11:07:13 | 顯示全部樓層
On the other hand, don't really think Sony cares about the small sales volume of Leica. Sony wants more to be a nightmare of Canon and Nikon. Seems their 1st step is  pretty ok with the launch of A7/A7r.
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發表於 2013-12-3 11:36:14 | 顯示全部樓層
本帖最後由 Jason 於 2013-12-3 11:37 編輯

I agree that Leica went to a wrong direction for going CMOS.
CMOS, to a large extent, still remains consumer products today, not state-of-the-art products. It doesn't fit Leica's image, nor market sector.

But the truth is: Leica has no choice. There are basically only two LCD manufacturers today: Kodak and Dalsa. Kodak is dying and has just been rebranded. For Dalsa, if my memory is correct, they don't seem to have 36x24 sensor size photographic sensor in production. If Leica wants to make one, they have to order large enough quantity to afford the R&D. That is impossible lahhhhh!!

Switching to CMOS, inevitably, Leica is putting itself in a direct competition with Sony and other newcomers. Hard battle!

Rangefinder experience is crucial for Leica users, I believe. But it is a double-edged sword. RF makes Leica unique. But at the same time, it makes the camera not very high-tech in today standard. The precision of this old designed rangefinder mechanism will eventually come to a point that it is not accurate enough for high resolution pixel sensors. And im sorry to say, Leica just stops being innovative. They didn't invent any new concepts for the RF system to make it "match" with today digital technology. They really should have done something like hybrid sensor of Fuji, and should be way beyond that level.

Not matter how much I like Leica. I have to say, I'm quite disappointed.
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 樓主| 發表於 2013-12-3 11:42:33 | 顯示全部樓層
Jason 發表於 2013-12-3 11:36
I agree that Leica went to a wrong direction for going CMOS.
CMOS, to a large extent, still remains ...

Time for Leica to return to its Canadian roots:

http://www.teledynedalsa.com/semi/ccd/
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發表於 2013-12-3 11:50:36 | 顯示全部樓層

actually i was wrong. I just took a look at their data sheet. They do have some 36x24 CCD sensors:

24MP:
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/ima ... area-scan/FTF6040C/

32MP:
http://www.teledynedalsa.com/ima ... area-scan/FTF7046C/

also monochrom version of the two.

Leica just went wrong!!
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發表於 2013-12-3 17:31:49 | 顯示全部樓層
Kanedias 發表於 2013-12-3 10:59
Panda Dada, it isn't that I do not appreciate the rangefinder experience and in fact I think it is ...

Well said!!! Totally agree with you....
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發表於 2013-12-3 17:35:33 | 顯示全部樓層
Jason 發表於 2013-12-3 11:50
actually i was wrong. I just took a look at their data sheet. They do have some 36x24 CCD sensors:
...

Jason, I also wish Leica keep the CCD. Just improve the LCD monitor and shutter release of M240. Give me back the CCD please!!!
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發表於 2013-12-3 18:21:16 來自手機 | 顯示全部樓層
英文好深呀,但d討論好似好有深度……
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發表於 2013-12-3 19:51:26 | 顯示全部樓層
C9.99 發表於 2013-12-3 18:21
英文好深呀,但d討論好似好有深度……

似乎讨论後对 Leica 只有一个简单建议:

若要继续徕卡传奇,请勿放弃 CCD, 而且请投放更多资源把它優化 !

• 世间万事皆荒䜥;游子笑颜对哀伤。
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發表於 2013-12-3 19:54:29 | 顯示全部樓層
Pandachief 發表於 2013-12-3 17:35
Jason, I also wish Leica keep the CCD. Just improve the LCD monitor and shutter release of M240. G ...

absolutely!!
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 樓主| 發表於 2013-12-3 22:34:18 | 顯示全部樓層
ww129 發表於 2013-12-3 19:51
似乎讨论後对 Leica 只有一个简单建议:

若要继续徕卡传奇,请勿放弃 CCD, 而且请投放更多资源把它優化  ...

Basically that's it!
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